Petronia

At this point in the tCoB discussion monkey x priest has become the byword for a whole class of BL tropes that fall loosely under sunao x whatever-Sanzou-is-that-isn't-sunao. *g* It hadn't, in fact, occurred to me that one could do said tropes in GB at all, which only goes to show that the Japanese fen is more imaginative than I am. Or possibly more dogged in their application of stereotype.

GB does monkey canonically, in a manner that I'd really rather not explain with a serious face. Priest... involves fannish extrapolation.

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I meant does GB do undiademmed monkey?
-mjj

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I'm thinking, in this case, Raitei = Son Goku, or about equivalent. So, yeah.

Not that I've seen more than three episodes.

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Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. What she said above.

(Which is why I wrote never showing that fight was a maddening stroke of genius.)

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But is there a Ban-uke webring?

Let me guess. Both en and jp fandom make him top, don't they?

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halcyonjazz.livejournal.com

Totally.

...

but there *are* Ban uke sites where Ban is passed around more than bathroom tissue.

There, I said it.

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But, see, I don't want him passed around like kleenex and turned into a sobbing, whimpering girl.

I just want him, you know, to have a healthy enjoyment of getting held down by the wrists and chewed on and fucked in the ass. By Ginji.

... I can't understand how anyone could look at those two and think Ban tops. I just can't.

Ban, now, Ban is smart-but-lazy. And just... a bottom.

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Watch the series first. (Short version: Ban has implied machismo issues up the wazoo, and Ginji cries like a girl every two episodes. But smart-but-lazy I could definitely see.)

There is a Ban-uke webring. Healthy minority, something like a 60/40 split in fact. But they tend to stick him in sailor fuku and schtuff.

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Watch the series first. (Short version: Ban has implied machismo issues up the wazoo, and Ginji cries like a girl every two episodes. But smart-but-lazy I could definitely see.)

Will do. It's just... from what I've seen (three eps), Ban's just... I can't see him really enjoying fucking someone else all that much. Or: he wouldn't get off on being on top for it's own sake.

Which is why he'd never bottom to anyone other than Ginji, and it's sort of topping-from-the-bottom at that, but...

It's like your smart-but-lazy thing. Say the pattern of Ban as seemingly-disinterested-yet-cranky bottom is: Ginji glomps Ban or snuggles up to Ban or whatever, it turns into groping because Ginji is, well, a monkey, Ban just sort of tolerates this, Ginji in his monkeyness blows an increasingly less reluctant Ban (who comes) and then fucks him up the ass (whence he comes again).

As opposed to Ban being top, which would either involve a lot of Ginji-centered foreplay that's probably boring as hell for Ban, or just 'hi you touched my penis i am ready fuck me now fuck me fuck me fuck me! (hold me)', which means that Ban only gets to come once, unless he makes Ginji blow him, which seems just a little bit too... I don't know, something.

Unless, I suppose, it's "Ban-chan! Fuck meeeeeeeeee!' 'No.' 'Pleeeeeeeease?' 'No.' 'PRETTY-PLEASE?' '... what's in it for me?' *blowjob*.

There's also the fact that, you know, if Ginji is topping, than Ban doesn't have to take responsibility for him.

... is there anyway halfway decent first time fic for the two of them out there?

*hunts up manga summaries and spoilers*

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~~Define halfway decent~~ No, wait, it was in Japanese at that. So... no explicit first-time if that's what you mean. Not insofar as I remember.

(The reason for this is probably the missing-scene fight I mentioned in the review. The overwhelming impulse is to say it ended in psychological enemyslash and make that their first time, because it would make so much sense, and yet for obvious reasons would totally contradict upcoming canon, whatever upcoming canon ends up being. And so the fandom waffles.)

X-Parrot wrote a cute one that probably was Ginji topping, Ban being lazy (and drunk). But I don't know, because it did a fade-to-black. XD

...Ban's canonical sexuality in manga (they censored it out of the anime) is... odd. He does a lot of ogling/tit-groping/behaving-like-a-general-manwhore-with-women-due-to-what-are-obviously-emotional-intimacy-issues. (Also - if one wants to tie him to the analyst's couch - due to the fact that around the time he was hitting puberty they sent him to live with a 99-year-old Spanish witch with DDD boobage who wears mesh tops without a bra.)

No, he wouldn't get off on topping in general. With Ginji specifically, maybe. More to the point, the basis of their relationship appears to be an unspoken agreement that Ban'll take charge at all times in order that Ginji wouldn't have to, because Ginji's had enough of taking charge in his life. In fact, it's much more so Ginji doesn't have to take responsibility for Ban.

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(The reason for this is probably the missing-scene fight I mentioned in the review. The overwhelming impulse is to say it ended in psychological enemyslash and make that their first time, because it would make so much sense, and yet for obvious reasons would totally contradict upcoming canon, whatever upcoming canon ends up being. And so the fandom waffles.)

I was thinking just-after-they-start-GetBackers first time, ie not the angry angry enemyslash. The nice first time.

... I just expressed a preference for nice. Gosh.

...Ban's canonical sexuality in manga (they censored it out of the anime) is... odd. He does a lot of ogling/tit-groping/behaving-like-a-general-manwhore-with-women-due-to-what-are-obviously-emotional-intimacy-issues. (Also - if one wants to tie him to the analyst's couch - due to the fact that around the time he was hitting puberty they sent him to live with a 99-year-old Spanish witch with DDD boobage who wears mesh tops without a bra.)

Oh, yeah, he's really obviously bisexual. So's Ginji, too, really, although I think Ginji's more... I want to say Ginji's more gay than Ban is, but then I realized, you know, I think Ginji's just more normally sexed than Ban is.

... see, thing is, Ban is just reminding me heavily of a lot of guys I know, including one I dated many moons ago, and they're all basically bottoms (in the sense of mostly prefering being-done-to), and they're all bisexual, and they're all kinda grumpy and have intimacy issues.

... amusingly, most of them are in bands.

And now I kind of want to write fic wherein Ban and Ginji go clubbing (Ban's idea) and act like a pair of sexmonkeys straight out of a J-Rock photobook in order to get girls, and then wind up fucking instead.

Although I assume that one has been done to death in Western yaoi fandom, these days.

No, he wouldn't get off on topping in general. With Ginji specifically, maybe. More to the point, the basis of their relationship appears to be an unspoken agreement that Ban'll take charge at all times in order that Ginji wouldn't have to, because Ginji's had enough of taking charge in his life. In fact, it's much more so Ginji doesn't have to take responsibility for Ban.

Hm.

... admittedly, I can really see it either way, including a lot of switching. But sexually, wouldn't that get boring after a while?

Then again, I suppose I'm equating 'one who gets fucked up ass/done to' with 'psychologically submissive/not the one running the fuck', which I should know better than to do by now.

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I was thinking just-after-they-start-GetBackers first time, ie not the angry angry enemyslash. The nice first time.

No there isn't, because people are lazy tards and don't want to make up backstory, and unless you want to go the straight PWP route - which really isn't the point - you'd have to make up backstory. ^^; We don't actually know how they started GetBackers. The manga literally offers nothing but a couple of gnomic flashbacks, the anime extrapolates a bit more. Ginji undergoes a seismic personality shift during that time period, and it's just... not laid out at all.

If you want to make shit up, OTOH, this is a perfect fandom for it. As long as you don't mind that the creators are probably going to contradict you massively sometime down the line. But then I speak to a HPficcer. XD

Ginji's much more of a normal dorky boy when it comes to girls, yeah. He has cute little puppy-dog protective crushes that tend to go nowhere pretty fast. ^^; Also, not so much more gay as more, err, lacking in heterosexual male adult social restraint. In the I-am-actually-a-two-year-old sense.

And now I kind of want to write fic wherein Ban and Ginji go clubbing (Ban's idea) and act like a pair of sexmonkeys straight out of a J-Rock photobook in order to get girls, and then wind up fucking instead. Although I assume that one has been done to death in Western yaoi fandom, these days.

WYaoi fandom in general - gawd, yes. Though it would work perfectly for GB as long as you made them act really stupid.

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If you want to make shit up, OTOH, this is a perfect fandom for it. As long as you don't mind that the creators are probably going to contradict you massively sometime down the line. But then I speak to a HPficcer. XD

What you said. Over here, making shit up is a bonus. I get bored with fandoms wherein I don't get to make shit up.

Yaaaay for thinly disguised original fiction!

Ginji's much more of a normal dorky boy when it comes to girls, yeah. He has cute little puppy-dog protective crushes that tend to go nowhere pretty fast. ^^; Also, not so much more gay as more, err, lacking in heterosexual male adult social restraint. In the I-am-actually-a-two-year-old sense.

You know, that is the ESSENCE of monkey right there. I-am-actually-a-two-year-old.

But, Ban, well.

SMART AND PERVERTED, yo. SMART AND PERVERTED.

<3

WYaoi fandom in general - gawd, yes. Though it would work perfectly for GB as long as you made them act really stupid.

And Ban bitches at Ginji for getting hard and being 'too realistic, damnit!', natch.

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You know, that is the ESSENCE of monkey right there. I-am-actually-a-two-year-old.

But, Ban, well.

SMART AND PERVERTED, yo. SMART AND PERVERTED.

The funny thing about Ginji is that he isn't. Or he remembers not being quite well. "Back when I was depressed, and an uber-powerful dictator, and not two years old."

I think Kadzuki is smart and perverted, and in that I am literally alone. Well, except for the Japanese madwomen who write Kadzuki x Ban.

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Maybe monkey x priest, then, is a testament to the fact that the sort of instinctual-mammalian-self is, in fact, far more powerful than intellect, and yet, without restraint (Raitei / Son Goku), it's destructive and unsatisfied. So, it must be reigned in by intellect, but given proper outlets at times, ie BUTTSEX, but as it is MONKEY, to fuck it in the butt is only to tempt its wrath, thus one must permit oneself to be fucked by it occasionally?

Or maybe it's just hot.

I think Kadzuki is smart and perverted, and in that I am literally alone. Well, except for the Japanese madwomen who write Kadzuki x Ban.

I'm sure I'll probably agree with you, eventually. Question is, do they do fanart?

Wow, there sure is a lot of BanGin fluff. And... a lot of it's damn well written. Shock.

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See, you find it hot in and of itself. *g* I don't actually go for instinct x intellect in that way, though I recognise where the dynamic might exist (and be sexy). Like I say, I tend toward Smart tops, plus whatever CxS is - a lot more self-awareness / awareness in general on both sides of the equation, at a guess.

I will find the Kadzuki-seme fanart, goddammit. I will.

BanGin fluff: I know. Why'd'you think I'm in it? It's like the One Prophesied Fandom, in which lo, the fluff Shall be Good.

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Like I say, I tend toward Smart tops, plus whatever CxS is - a lot more self-awareness / awareness in general on both sides of the equation, at a guess.

Yeah, see... the problem I have with Smart tops, to wit, is that I am one IRL, and I find Dumb bottoms boring. Or, rather, Smart x Dumb is far too much like traditional Dom/sub for me, and I actually find genuine subbiness... anywhere from irritating to downright squicky and annoying and 'for god's sake, GO AWAY!'.

Possibly this is me going for too much RL psychological veracity, but I can't see any seriously hardcore Smart top actually being too interested in Dumb bottoms. Smart tops just seem more likely to go after other Smart tops, you know? Or at least Smart/coy/cunning bottoms, who'd do most of the initiating in the first place.

The problem with Smart topping is that Smart's smart; it's going to figure out Dumb pretty quick (in an intellectual way, which is the point), and once it has, it's going to get bored. If Smart is bottoming on the other hand, it's still going to find Dumb unknown and unfathomable, thus scary, thus strangely appealing in that really unsettled way that makes for great sex, especially if it's got even a hint of D/s.

BanGin fluff: I know. Why'd'you think I'm in it? It's like the One Prophesied Fandom, in which lo, the fluff Shall be Good.

Now, if only there was porn. ... I mean, that Chalcedony Cross PWP with the handcuffs in the car was great, even if it was Ban topping, and the word choice occasionally made me snicker hysterically.

Also, true story: So I download a Ban and Ginji skin and slap it on Winamp. First song that comes up on random shuffle? BNL, 'If I Had A Million Dollars'.

IT KNOWS.

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Well, my!CxS is obviously Smart x Smart. Lawful!Smart x Chaotic!Smart, in fact - I think Lawful x Chaotic is more my core paradigm than anything else, really, because it comes with the internal conflict of why-the-hell-do-I-get-off-on-sleeping-with-*him*-again.

Safe. Safe, not boring. XD My Smart characters tend to come with fear-of-control-loss issues up the wazoo, to the extent that just the fact of feeling irrational-by-definition desire for another person gives them the heebies. After which it becomes, okay, my hormones have looped me into this situation kicking and screaming, but at least said situation is going to play out according to *my* rules. Classic yaoi seme, in fact.

Also, I'm not sure if I ever really do Dumb characters.

It's mapping my own psychology onto my charas, obviously, but then that's what this is about in the first place. I've also got a protective streak that triggers at odd moments with certain people - more or less the same one that Ban has in canon.

"If I Had A Million Dollars" - I'd make a joke about buying monkeys here, but the possibilities are infinite. Also, come to think of it, monkeys are a major recurring theme in the series anyway.

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I don't know that I've ever seen a shounen as vague as GB. Typically they begin with hero setting out into the world, whereupon he meets his first rivals, defeats them, and they become his best buds. That wouldn't have worked quite so well here, seeing as though Ban takes a bit more of the spotlight, the protagonist really is the GetBackers, a plural individual, but... Even Saiyuki doesn't take too long to establish the past, albeit with gaps...GB is just a huge blank spot. Which does offer great fic possibilities, I suppose, but personally, speaking as a canon-freak, the frustation levels here are...astronomical.

But I won't deny the demented genius of it. Even tho' I have my suspicions that part of it stems from the mangaka simply not knowing "what really happened". Fly by the seat of their pants, much?

Agree that Ginji's not really gay so much as experiencing his first childhood after a long delay. Also take into account that he grew up in Mugenjou, and social mores about sexuality might not quite apply in that chaos. Didn't seem like Kazuki and Juubei were hiding much, certainly.

Though it would work perfectly for GB as long as you made them act really stupid.

Really, isn't this how one advises writing the GetBackers, period?

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It's the blank spot that makes it so fascinating. ^_^ I think the mangaka have no idea whatsoever, just that they're very good at disguising that they're clueless, Chris Carter-style.

As opposed to, say, Yami no Matsuei.

Anime-style stupidity is difficult to write, she sighs. Far easier to take it more seriously than warranted, à la Ranma fanfiction.

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Plus, you know, if he gets fucked in the ass that means he has to relax some time.

He's so obviously the top in the rest of the relationship that, well...

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Y'know, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. 'cuz I thought maybe I was just nuts...but I've seen all 49 eps and most of the manga, and while in practice I think they might alternate (those boys have so much fun with each other at all other times, I imagine they're just silly in the sack)...I rather like to see Ginji topping. (Of course this could be due to my unnatural preference for semes, and Gin-chan is my favorite by a few blond spikes, but...it balances out their relationship rather nicely, that Ban could let go of his control in such intimacy...)

And there's been very little English smut writ for GB thus far...I'd do something about it, except I, uh, am one of those bad yaoi fans who gets off more on the mental/emotional relationship dramatics than the stickystickyhothot, plus I can't write lemons to save my life...

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And there's been very little English smut writ for GB thus far...I'd do something about it, except I, uh, am one of those bad yaoi fans who gets off more on the mental/emotional relationship dramatics than the stickystickyhothot, plus I can't write lemons to save my life...

Still. URL, plz k thx.

Oddly enough, I... kinda think I'll wind up the same way for GB.

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all my GB is currently here (http://www.fanfiction.net/profile.php?userid=19421) and I apologize for sending you unto the wildreness that is ff.net, but I haven't thrown it up on my own page yet because I am a lazy and easily distracted idiot.

And you will. At least if you write BanGin. It's unavoidable. They are TEH LORDS OF TEH FLUFF. I used to be an angst writer...

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the fluff eats your soul <3

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i'm writing GB smut. well, kinda. sorta. i think i should call it 'ginji tops' but then people might injure me. >D;;;

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waitaminutewhendowegetoseethis, hmmmmm??? share share share!!

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......*cough*

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halcyonjazz.livejournal.com

I guess I'm one of the few that sees Ban as the major control freak o__o;; Paraphrasing Waitotochan... Ban kind of HAD to have control, you know? o_o He has a constellation of a snake in his right arm and a 3-chancer trump. Not to mention maniacal nature's been hinted at over and over in the series.

So to me, he kind of *really* needs to have the situation to his command and advantage (any situation)--that, or ultimately turn the situation to his advantage. And Ban has all the skills to do it too--isnce he's the World's Living Encyclopedia >_>;;

Not saying Ginji won't top sometimes <3 Because Ginji is probably the *only* person Ban can even smidgetly allow some of that control to slip and be "vunerable"--so to speak. Because Midou Ban-sama has WAY too much pride to let such a slip normally--but GINJI is different. Ginji, in short, is his better half, and putting a small wall between the issues with his ego...well... <3 <3 <3

Of course, doesn't mean Ban will still feel queasy enough to command the how-to even when he's taking it XD

Er, yah <3

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On the contrary - I absolutely do see Ban as a control freak, and for the reasons you named - he was raised to be one, he has to be one to manage both his snake and his jagan. Besides his incredible fighting prowess, he manipulates people shamelessly - usually agressively & obviously, but more subtlely if he has to. His 'world encyclopedia' bit is because he cannot stand being ignorant, having someone know more than him means they have a measure power over him. (at the same time, Ban is not quite as in control as he would like to think. He's barely an adult, he's psychologically extremely insecure, and for all his bravado his self esteem is impossibly low. And he tends to overthink situations, e.g. the platinum fiasco.)

I can see him being a pushy bottom, definitely - despite the usual seme/uke pigeonholes, the top is not automatically in control. But I can (and like to) also see Ban relenquishing control to Ginji - only to Ginji, because he trusts Ginji that much. And because Ginji with all his touchy-feeliness probably has a higher sexdrive than Ban (Ban gropes all those women but I still don't buy he actually means it; it's a defense tactic as much as his 'nicknames' for every guy he knows, designed to keep them at a distance. He can't have people liking him - bad things tend to happen to his friends. How Ginji slipped past this wall...)

If I argue a bottom Ban, it is absolutely and only with Ginji...(but then, I am so hopelessly OTP when it comes to them that I tend to forget alternatives exist ^^;;;) And it would only be because Ban really wants it...Ginji is so good at reading his Ban-chan, after all...

--Argh! why am I speculating on GetBackers when I'm supposed to be going to my sweet sweet bed? oyasumi! ^^;

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halcyonjazz.livejournal.com

DUDE YES--exactly that! <3 <3 <3 Aaah, exuchan, sukisuki <3 <3 <3

I want to know how Ginji slipped past that wall so very desperately o__o I don't want to exucse it as "because it's *Ginji*" because that's really BS. And we all know the reasoning is with that epic battle--which I agree with both you and sabina. On one hand it's pure brilliance to leave it as a gaping hole left for fan speculation, on the other it's having me tera my hair out until I'm bald fifty years too early.

And about Ban not buying into his own perversity? I agree with you--and yet... I am also convinced Ban is just as hormonal he pretends to be. It's just... he doesn't *care* about anyone. That is, anyone besides Ginji. The only reason he's as social as he *is* is *because* of Ginji..

Waaaah, T___T Ban, Ginji, you're so cute!!!11 T___T Aaah~ Ban, only for your Ginchan <3

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I want to know how Ginji slipped past that wall so very desperately

At least part of the reason might be because Ban has faith in Ginji's strength - more than Ginji himself does, even. Ban believes that Ginji is actually strong enough to survive the machinations of his witch curse that drops his friends like flies. Raitei is the only guy we know of who fought Ban to a standstill (in the anime Ban says he won, but I don't buy it) and Ban believes Ginji can be stronger than Raitei. Ah, shounen strength paradigms...

It's not the only thing going on, but I think it's part of it...

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/rubs eyes sleepily
uhm the ban 'world encyclopedia' thing came out of the fact that his grandmother told him that he should learn/do/become good at everything or else Certain Forces would catch up with him and he'd be killed...? isn't that a happy thing to tell your 8 year old grandson? between that and sending him to live with maria, my god, poor ban-chan...

ginji tops because he's... well.. ginji. my god, he's the one always jumping ban as it is :D;;;; besides,

nekokoban and i agree that he has ban wrapped around his pinky finger (...amongst other things >D)- even if ginji's the one who's outwardly affectionate (...and even has a section in his character profile in the fanbook with the heading 'he really loves ban!!' ^^;;;) ban is the one with an almost visceral need @___@ i'm not 100% sure about it, but i think that by now ban knows about the prophecy of ginji's death... which might go a ways to explain why he apparently goes a little crazy and beats the fuck out of dokubachi in this week's chapter...? i'll need to actually get my hands on the chapter to be sure, though, rather than going off secondhand information.

i'm not making much sense. also, i need to be studying for an test :D;;;; /runs off

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