This is a mild spoiler I guess but idgaf

[petronia]

I am poking at book 4 with a stick, and get this: IT STARTS WITH A WACKY ONSEN EPISODE. In more than a decade of reading/watching Western media and being like, "You know what this series needs? A wacky onsen episode!" this is the first time I've been handed one before I asked for it. Or indeed ever.

The author has an eerie and unerring instinct, I guess is what I'm saying. Taking the start (...and end) of book 3 into account, I will be disappointed if there is no sex pollen in book 5. Also, I don't understand why there isn't a Japanese edition of this on Amazon.

Wait -- my party is Lymond, Jerott and Philippa? This rules! Philippa can be Chemist/Black Mage. (Stop me from going back and giving everyone in Lymond's private army a Job class a la FFT.)

EDIT -- fff OK no Marthe is definitely the Black Mage. And Philippa has left my party :( which, and this feels like something that's actually happened to me in-game at one point, leaves me with a Paladin whose White Mage capabilities are levelling off. This joke has long passed its unnatural lifespan but somehow it's left me with a burning desire for a Lymond Chronicles/Final Fantasy Tactics fusion.

...There are all sorts of other side elements to this reading experience I could talk about. XD; For instance, apparently I don't need a farfetched excuse to stick Tinariwen on this here FST! Also, I've been investigating the era's fashions, because I'd sort of been leaving it up to the part of my brain that does the movies, and at this point halfway through, I wanted to see if I was off or not. XD; Not by much, it turns out - but then, if you're of a European ruling family and have had a Bronzino or a Holbein done, I'd recognize you passing on the street, which is more than I can say for some people I went to high school with. As the 1500s went, I have to say Dunnett picked IMO the two sanest-clothed decades for both men and women - which is saying a lot, considering that this was also the era of EPIC CODPIECE REALISM.

EDIT FOR THE EDIFICATION OF FUTURE READERS: the post is innocuous, but the comments are approaching nuclear spoiler levels for book 4. Pace accordingly. XD

Comments

[supacat.livejournal.com]

"When I wish to be followed like a bitch in season, I shall tell you."

LYMOND, I LOVE YOU.

I give up, I'm jumping into the series to reread along with you. I'd forgotten the bathhouse scene! God, I love Dunnett ridiculously. When he flips the nun upside down!! You won't be disappointed if there is no sex pollen in book 5, I promise.

[petronia.livejournal.com]

I give up, I'm jumping into the series to reread along with you

:D

Good thing for the bathhouse too, because the rest thus far has been grim! If the POV hadn't switched to Philippa I would have had to take a break (...I think Lymond just sold himself to a Turkish commander or something, which after the whole bit with the child brothel was just, no. Failure to cope on my part). The last one had politics and battles and stuff, now we're running on A MYSTIC PROPHECY. Lymond should've iced Gabriel right there in the church, I refuse to believe he had this entire Xanatos gambit set up in advance. XD;

[rondaview.livejournal.com]

...I think Lymond just sold himself to a Turkish commander or something, which after the whole bit with the child brothel was just, no.

OH GOD SABINA. WAIT FOR IT. WAIT FOR IT. (translation: el guano is going to hit the fan, man. major guano.)

[petronia.livejournal.com]

DDDD:

The worst part is afterward where Jerott is like, Hey, what happened to your hair? Did you cut it? wnl;dz./sdrl;234';l JEROTT THE THING WHERE YOU'RE MAKING WORDS COME OUT OF YOUR MOUTH, PLEASE STOP DOING IT

I am so pissed off about Oonagh! And Marthe, I want to like her but in context she makes a grim thing grimmer. And I can sense there're 18 more levels to climb in Gabriel's frigging Xanatos Gambit Tower, god it's worse than dealing with Aizen in Bleach.

Sex pollen: LOOOOOL really? XD It's from Star Trek fandom I think, although I don't remember if there was ACTUAL SEX POLLEN in Trek canon (probably at some point). Basically it's the trope where you go to an alien planet and encounter random substances that make ppl act wacky (put like that, it happens multiple times in Trek canon). Generalized to any sudden!unintentional!aphrodisiac, basically.

[rondaview.livejournal.com]

LADY I AM TOTALLY GETTING YOUR DDDDDDDD:

When I first read the scene with the Turkish commander, I thought Lymond'd agreed to take part in a threesome. Bwuh? THERE IS A SCENE AFTERWARD that is significant, and that scene is PRECISELY why Dunnett boggles me to the max. SUBTLETY TO THE POINT OF OBFUSCATION INDEED, I needed to be provided a friggin site map to that development to Get It.

Speaking of which, I wonder if you will. *steeples fingers and awaits your reaction placidly*

alksgjlkasgj lol sudden!unintentional!aphrodisiac, I AM INNOCENT OF TREKKIE TERMINOLOGY OKAY, DON'T H8

CHILD BROTHEL SCENE MADE ME CRINGE. OH GOD JEROTT. In all seriousness though I love huge dramatic stakes in stories, and what could be more huge than CHILD PROSTITUTION ALSKGJLSAKGJKLAGSJ. It's a large part of the reason why PiF had such a tremendous affect on my fragile emotional wellbeing, god.

[petronia.livejournal.com]

To get serious for a moment, that scene actually reminded me a lot of the sequence in The Alexandria Quartet where Justine goes searching for her missing child. And there was also a dervish prophecy/vision/thing! Dunnett is becoming this sort of link of influence in all my readings, like a puzzle piece you didn't realize was missing.

In conclusion: LAWRENCE OF ARABIA, SO MUCH TO ANSWER FOR

[rondaview.livejournal.com]

As it happens, the Alexandria Quartet is also on my to-read list, alongside the Raj Quartet, for no other reason than that they are both quartets and sound epic and historical and immersive!

Marthe took me a while too. I have nothing else to add re: the fashions of the time. Wait, where are you now? DID YOU GET TO THE BOMBSHELL SCENE YET Are you like, reading at work? XD *peeps over your shoulder*

[petronia.livejournal.com]

Do read it! And then you can hold the discussion club. XD For a few years a bunch of ppl on my flist were reading it one after the other, but the whole process was so strung out we never got a discussion going at any time. I don't think I even blogged my thoughts about the last couple of volumes! I would definitely read it again.

I am about to leave work! I read these parts last night before going to bed. XD I have a few hours and it is sunny out so I will probably find a terrasse or something. If horrifying shiz happens I will be back spamming this post 'round midnight LOL

[petronia.livejournal.com]

The other thing I want to write out, so don't let me forget it as I have up to now, re: the gendered Awful Happenings - Lymond doesn't just win/lose the male battles by male protocol, he's made subject to successes and failures on both sides of the fence. It's made a point of in this book, even, ppl are like: since when does a guy let his life be ruined by a bastard child like this? Does not compute. And all the times he uses or is subject to sex as a tool, a weapon...

[rondaview.livejournal.com]

......see you around midnight then LOL.

Yeah, right? God knows what kind of shit went down on those pirate galleys. And there you were innocently a-ponderin' the writing of precanon slavefic. Not that I was imagining Lymond as a figure of power and motivator of mutiny on those boats, but with the onset of these events (the child brothel, Lymond trading away his body for free passage), you look back in retrospect at his turn abroad the galleys and suddenly think "oh god." it's all so much more bleak and depressive once you factor in how Dunnett likes to get her ducks in a row wrt structural similarities (the Lymond-Gabriel parallel being another one of these), so that yeah, Lymond having to suffer like his son makes a sick, symmetrical kind of sense.

well, youknow, the guy's such a magnetic figure that everyone wants a piece of him. even the lawyer at the end of GoK was like, yeah, that man is fine, if I were a chick..... as Nol once said -- prefer only one sex in this series? TOO UNAMBITIOUS!

I will get on the Alexandria Quartet eventually. although I'm debating whether I want to do this after or before Patrick O'Brian and the Gormenghast Trilogy. XD I just read a blog post claiming that the Auburey-Maturin series is better than Dunnet, which if that is true, I WILL EAT MY RUBBER FELT HAT.

[rondaview.livejournal.com]

It's made a point of in this book, even, ppl are like: since when does a guy let his life be ruined by a bastard child like this? Does not compute.
I think that eventually you get the sense that Lymond is going after Gabriel just as much as he's going after his son, because he is mortally afraid of what will happen not just to Scotland but also to the whole WORLD should Gabriel rise to any seat of ascendency. Remember that conversation on horseback that Lymond had Jerott and Blacklock in DK? The one where he talks extremely obliquely about (what I perceive to be) his true life's motivations - preserving the future and the music, yadda yadda? Of course everyone else who cares about Lymond is just like, what the FUCK are you doing, you get back here right now young man and resume destroying France your sedate lifestyle as the Comte de blah blah.

[petronia.livejournal.com]

It is worth it for the prose alone! I see you either loving it or being completely enraged. XD

[rondaview.livejournal.com]

what is......sex pollen.........or maybe i don't want to know

[canis-m.livejournal.com]

alsjdflaskdfjk I have now downloaded all of these, 責任取りなさいよね

[petronia.livejournal.com]

Ahahaha oh man okay, try the first one and think what you think. XD;

[rondaview.livejournal.com]

...Getting you on board the Dunnett express was the canniest marketing plot I ever did hatch. XD Now a train of your lj friends are sure to follow!

[supacat.livejournal.com]

THIS IS GOING TO BE AMAZING.

new thread for new topic

[rondaview.livejournal.com]

NEED HALP INTERPRETING THIS PASSAGE:

'In that case he will, I am afraid, remain anxious,' said Lymond. 'Assai sa, chi nulla sa, se facer' sa, so to speak. Furthermore, if we are to have enlightenment, I propose that we have general en lightenment. Will you call Kiaya Hhatun, or shall I?'
A little silence fell. The heavy gold plait, loosened by some light humidity of her skin, had begun to unfurl over Marthe's shoulder: the sheen of it, pulled slanting over her brow, gave to her eyes underneath a shadowed, fey quality, disturbing and troubled. She said, 'Do what you wish. I don't care.'
'But I do,' said Lymond. 'I know you are bitter [about Jerott? about, more generally, her station in life?]. I won't believe you are jealous.'
Marthe broke into laughter. Flinging back her head she laughed, open-throated: genuine laughter, with a thread of hysteria some where behind it. The little petals, unregarded, tumbled down the folds of her robe to the ground. When she could speak: ‘I don't want Jerott Blyth!' she exclaimed.
'Be quiet!' For the first time, Lymond's soft voice bit. ‘I know that. I spoke of something quite different.'

Specifically: why does Lymond say that he doesn't believe that Marthe is jealous? Jealous of what? Lymond's riches and nobleman status? Somehow I don't think it's that simple. so Marthe thinks that Lymond is referencing Jerott's devotion to Lymond; but Lymond is clearly talking about something else. Disregarding for the moment Lymond's views on Jerott's, um, slightly intense feelings for his dear old pal Francis ... actually I don't even know how to end that sentence. I gots no guesses left, man. What is this 'something quite different'?

Re: new thread for new topic

[supacat.livejournal.com]

OK I'm not sure at this point what you are getting and what you are not getting, so here is everything: while Lymond is sleeping with the Aga, Marthe is sleeping with Kiaya Khatun. This is what Lymond means by 'general enlightenment', and what he is referencing in the rest of the conversation.

Edit to add: I think the jealousy thing extends beyond this though, at least in my personal head canon. Jealousy is the key component to the Marthe/Lymond relationship. Or, not jealousy so much as, they are both the same person, and so they are fighting over the same space, and he occupies it and pushes her out of it. Everything he does is allowed to be active and open and full of male privilege, while everything she does as a female in that time period is forced underground. She's Lymond if he'd been born a woman and not had the opportunities to use any of his talents in the world.

Re: new thread for new topic

[petronia.livejournal.com]

Yes, totally called this too! *fistpumps* *is on roll*

Based on her later conversation with Jerott, I think Marthe is also jealous of Kiaya Khatun -> Lymond - she thinks there's a chance Kiaya might try to get Lymond under her spell as a powerplay.

Re: new thread for new topic

[supacat.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I totally agree, and I also feel like, depending on how much you assume Marthe has real feelings for Guzel, you could read it as jealousy of his gender, because a man can have the kind of relationship with Guzel that she cannot.

Re: new thread for new topic

[rondaview.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I get the reference to the Marthe/Kiaya relationship, and I do understand that the jealousy extends to include all components of Marthe's station in life vs. Lymond's, as you say, but my question is, why would Lymond refuse to believe that Marthe IS jealous? You'd think embittered and jealous go hand in hand here; I see no useful differentiation between the two.

Re: new thread for new topic

[supacat.livejournal.com]

Oh ok! :) This is just my personal read on it but:

I think the difference between bitterness and jealousy in this context is twofold. First of all, bitterness is more of a general state, a malaise, you can be bitter about your situation, life in general, it's impersonal. Whereas jealousy is targeted. It's personal. I am jealous of him.

Secondly and perhaps more importantly -- bitterness, like being jaded, at least somewhat implies you are outside the paradigm, looking in at it, scornfully or ironically. It's a cold emotion. Whereas jealousy implies you are trapped within, yearning and wanting something, unable to see yourself. It's a hot emotion.

Then throw in the fact that it is Lymond saying this to Marthe -- and the two of them are so identical that they know exactly what will cut each other below the cuticle, as Lymond says -- he knows that she would be horrified by idea of displaying any of the juvenile, cloying sentimentality* of the hot emotions, just as he would himself: jealousy is for the Jerott Blyths of the world, not for these two cool inimical blonds.

Considering all this, when he says 'I won't believe you are jealous' for me it has a whiff of calling her back into line, as though saying, remember your more rigorous self.

Schooling people is one of his default modes when he is asserting himself, except that he forgets that she and he are the same person, so when he schools her he is schooling himself. Well, I suppose that is what he is doing when he schools anyone, asserting his internal standards over them, but it's more obvious when he does it with her because she so perfectly adheres to them anyway. They end up facing off saying 'Yo' mother' to each other in the most hurtful revealing way possible. 'I won't believe you are jealous. I won't believe you have any emotions at all.' 'I won't believe YOU have any emotions at all.' Cold blue stare.

* Or primaeval ooze, as you will.

Re: new thread for new topic

[rondaview.livejournal.com]

Wow, this is an incredibly well-thought-out explanation. I UNDERSTAND ALL NOW! Thank God for you and S, seriously. I'd be wandering off into a ditch without y'all. XD

Also, this is quite helpful to know for fanon/fanfic purposes. *aims a cough in Sabina's direction*