The Avengers structural exercise (pt.4)

[petronia]

Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

The rest of the second act:

Thor vs. Loki 1. Thor teleports onto a plane travelling at warp speed, and can you freeze frame the look on Loki's face? Not to retype all my Loki thoughts in the comments to part 1, but IMO Thor delivered on archetypal psychological conflict, even if it didn't quite work qua superhero movie - like, I keep joking that Astolat writes Loki as Francis Lymond, but Astolat didn't make up the weird basic similarity between their backstories. Also, more The Lion In Winter than Richard III, bless ye Branagh. Whereas Whedon has the actors set up Tony's "Shakespeare in the Park" zing to its full extent, after which I was basically incapable of taking this scene seriously ever again.

Sidebar on the really big crowd laughs in this film, which are consistent in this order:

5- The "shawarma" speech. All Tony, but as much catharsis as anything.
4- "Doth Mother know". Tony, again, but it's only funny because it's true (of Thor and Loki).
3- Hulk punches Thor out of the frame. Pure comedic timing.
2- "He's adopted". This is OOC for Thor, in the sense that Thor neither means it, nor has the sense of humour where he'd say it just to be (in)appropriately witty (as Tony would). Joss had to go for the ba-da-tish, I guess. Note that Hemsworth is actually the one who makes the line work.
1- Hulk whacks Loki. This is perfectly cathartic not only because it speaks to what makes Loki work as a villain (as opposed to emo woobie), but because it speaks to what makes the Hulk compelling. I can believe this is the first time they got that right in the movies, because I've never been moved to ponder the question before.

The point is, Thor vs. Loki misses out on being the central emotional arc of The Avengers - there's a lot of messy emotion, but not much arc. (Sororial unit complained that no one had an arc except Bruce, which is a fair point by which to judge the movie, though I assume it was intentional.)

Thor vs. Iron Man. Meanwhile, plenty of ppl watched this movie to see stuff like this, not "emotional arcs." As shounen manga howdy-do FITES go, they're successful - I prize clarity of visual narrative above all in action sequences, and the blow-counterblow stuff is beautifully choreographed and laid out. Thor's lightning "recharging" Tony is Looney Tunes (not to mention a Chekhov's Gun that needed firing in the third act), but. I particularly liked the one where Iron Man headbutts Thor, and Thor headbutts him right back leaving a dent.

Captain America vs. Thor 1. Tony's put-upon sigh indicates that he did the math in his head a fraction of a second before the shockwave actually happened. Anyway. There is little lasting character effect because they're both honourable warriors, how do you even meet new people in wuxia without a tussle. All that's missing is a bamboo grove, though they do level some boreal forest.

Loki vs. Fury. Messed up the order again -- they go back to the Helicarrier, Loki trolls Bruce, then Fury puts him in a jar, as if it weren't obvious he came on purpose, since he didn't run away when Cap, Iron Man, and Thor were smashing each other in the face. Still think Subdee's comment on this face-off is the best: though I rewatched the film with it in mind, and what Loki says to him can actually be taken both ways simultaneously - referring to him losing the Cube to Loki, and losing power/direction to the Council. Dual meanings are perfectly in character for those two, of course.

Group discussion on the bridge (Tony vs. Bruce 1 / Thor vs. Coulson 1). Back on the Helicarrier, where Thor infodumps about stuff we already knew (needs editing, there).

The key meetup here is Tony and Bruce. It's a lovely subversion of expectations on first watch; one suspects Whedon discovered it as he wrote it. But of course, if Tony did stay up reading all of Solveig's and Bruce's research, he would be predisposed to like them - especially Bruce. (Yinsen was a special case, but in another sense, not really. Why doesn't Tony have any real friends from MIT?)

There was still a test, though! A little test. Bruce passed it easily, and I think he knew he passed it, because people who are used to being the smartest in the room do this all the time. It's not being an asshole, at least if you're mature enough to realize IQ isn't the be-all end-all; you just want to know. The honourable warrior tussle, not the Loki-style verbal blood-drawing. Anyway, the reason this scene gets so much love is because nerds know how heady that sense of instant intellectual connection is, when you end up talking with someone you just met for 23 hours straight. XD; They even reach the "awkward personal overshare" stage right on target, an hour or two into their lab time, and start on about heart shrapnel and stuff that Tony normally doesn't discuss with anyone. Also, Tony is not even joking when he says he is a fan of the Hulk. Tony is that six-year-old who can't keep his mouth shut about having a superhero identity and thinks the Hulk is the coolest thing ever.

Thor is angry and sad and worn down with it, even suffering a spot of self-loathing, which is awful because against the seeming nature of things. Like a droopy Golden Retriever.

cont.

Comments

[flamebyrd]

Agreed on Laugh #2 - it's vaguely bothered me by seeming OOC every time I'm reminded of it.

On #1, you mean that Loki is the kind of villain who likes to make compelling speeches and smacktalk his opponents, whereas the Hulk... smashes? XD

[petronia]

I remember writing in a GetBackers story: "swift violence without complexity, a boon rarely granted in these latter days." XD At that point in the story, the Hulk is basically a kludge for the Loki problem, so dudes can get on with the immediate job of patching the massive security hole. It's funny because it has that kludge elegant-awfulness.

[petronia]

And yes, Loki's speechifying -- rather he's been getting on all this time on a desperate mustering of charisma, and the humans keep making it incrementally difficult for him even as he keeps doubling down. If he'd been thinking, he would've just used an illusion trick against the Hulk, but it was like the third time he crash-landed on Tony's balcony within 20 minutes and it was just this heartfelt wail of frustration more than anything, like why does the real world refuse to cooperate with his delusion of grandeur. XD;

[labingi]

Thanks for your analysis. :) As someone in an adoption process, the "He's adopted" line threw me a little harder than I would have thought. I kept imagining how nasty it would sound if my kids (currently still in Haiti) had been sitting in the audience: if you're adopted, you're not real family and you're evil to boot.

On the other hand, I don't want to be someone who morally censors every kind of joke just because it sounds insensitive to someone somewhere. Almost all humor would be off-putting to someone. I do agree it felt forced in for a laugh, though. And the laugh was not that funny.

[petronia]

I was just commenting on this post that talks about the ways one is invited to view the Loki adoption narrative. Ultimately, I think it's allowed to remain ambiguous because the question of nature vs. nurture is ambiguous, but Loki is obviously mean to be wrong when he derives the conclusion that blood will out, choice doesn't matter, and free will is therefore an illusion because what "applies" to him applies to the masses.

I did find that joke genuinely funny, but also genuinely offensive (as well as OOC). I wrote this really long screed in the comments of Part 1, which sort of got into my personal experience with the impact of adoption, too. :P

[petronia]

...Or Part 2, rather!

[bladderwrack]

re: 'he's adopted', yeah, psychologically/character-wise, this makes no sense whatsoever, but it's too good a punchline to pass up.

I like that about this movie; it's, like, a perfectly executed study in fanservice. XD

Like, Hulk in the final act embodies a different part of that - he enacts the audience's base desires by catching Tony + also by punching the annoying characters. :D But Hulk Smash is a merciful defeat, because it allows Loki to /stop/ while retaining some intellectual dignity. The one who really beats Loki is Black Widow, with the emotional confidence game. 'mewling quim' is just a measure of how successful she was. But although Loki totes deserved that smackdown it was unlikely to actually help in terms of making him less crazy/dangerous. ... Yeah sorry I should make my own post. XD

Everyone keeps talking about this shawarma speech and I have no recollection of it whatsoever~

[flamebyrd]

It reminds me of that scene in one of the episodes of Firefly (the first one I saw, but I can't remember if it's the 'real' first episode or not), where the henchman is giving a speech about how they will never be forgiven for their betrayal... and they throw him into the engine.

Disrupting the narrative pattern to do what you secretly really want to do, as it were.

[petronia]

That's a good point, about Hulk Smash -- I dunno that it was dignified for Loki, but nothing short of sheer physical flattening would have gotten him to stop. XD;

The weird thing about Loki vs. Black Widow is that I'm not sure Loki really understood she beat him! Like, he is maybe not self-aware enough to see how she drew him out on his own turf, and events moved so quickly thereafter it mattered less than it should have.

Right at the end when Tony's lying on the ground and rambling about how they won. Although most ppl also mean the payoff to the joke, which is a post-credits scene where the team actually goes for shawarma, that was only shown in time for the North American release. It's wordless and VERY funny, because the acting just encapsulates that "4AM kebab post-strenuous physical activity" feeling.

What has boggled me is the discovery that a great many people did not know what shawarma was before Tony Stark talked about it. XD;;

[flamebyrd]

Oh, one thing (how did I miss this the first time) on the Bruce & Tony scene: I think the reason I personally find it so compelling is that "Finally, somebody who speaks English" line. Because I work in a technical position in a non-technical setting and have nobody I can talk to about what I do, and it was just an instant Moment of Empathy for me.

/random

[flamebyrd]

What has boggled me is the discovery that a great many people did not know what shawarma was before Tony Stark talked about it. XD;;

This has boggled me too. I've seen in a lot of fic this sort of "whatever that is" throwaway line, and it honestly never occurred to me before that people wouldn't have heard of it.

[bladderwrack]

Well, it's undignified in that it's a stupid way to get beaten, but what I mean is that Loki didn't finally get taken down in the area he is most invested in being the best at, which is mind games.

idk, I think that for a few moments, Loki knows he just got owned by Black Widow. He seems almost to be in a state of shock. But yeah, he pushes the fact out of his awareness pretty quickly, and the plot kind of lets him do that.

oic. Actually I didn't know the word - it's always just 'kebab' here IME.

[canis_m]

RE: shawarma, I'd seen the preparation (in Europe, not locally) but had never registered the term. Meat in general isn't so much on my radar, so that's my excuse XD; but there are big swaths of the U.S. where Middle Eastern food of any stripe isn't common--I'm betting plenty of people in my state don't know from falafel, either. Or they've maybe heard the word, but couldn't tell you what was in it.

[flamebyrd]

I don't mean it as criticism, honestly! Just, it took me by surprise. (Like when I meet people who've never had Indian food, which has happened a couple of times.)

Just means, in the spirit of XKCD that you get to introduce someone to something new! (Although I suppose shawarma = not great for vegetarians. Which I am.)

[petronia]

In Montreal there are a number of Middle Eastern fast food chains, you can get it on every street corner... and my sister still didn't know what it was. XD; (Though in Montreal chicken shawarma is mislabelled shish taouk, because brochettes are either brochettes or souvlaki.)

[ayalesca]

oh god finally watched iron man 2 (wow I hope he donated his atom smasher to CERN, huh?), just read all these in a row. cannot brain but --

agreed with things! glad people also agree that "adopted" was a really weird thing, it's totally not Thor's style at all but ... it was funny and everyone else sold it, as was said.

(really? people don't know what shwarma is? well I hope the movie broadens their culinary horizons XD because it's glorious.)

good god tony changes a lot between im2 and avengers, can't tell how much is due to change of writers/he's no longer coping with actively dying/he has a ton of people around him who are suddenly worthy of his attention b/c they are just as destructive XD and that distracts him from his more asshole tendencies XD

[petronia]

Atom smasher: I know, right? TBH I ponder the wisdom of this guy (...and Bruce) setting up shop in a glass tower in midtown Manhattan; you get the feeling that building will forever be a work in progress. XD;

[ayalesca]

Haha I know right??? I'd be amazed if his experiments don't take out the electromagnetic field of Manhattan at the rate he's going XD

I have lots of thoughts (generally positive, actually) on the "science" in IM1/2 but I lol'ed hard when I realized that Tony can build a flying suit and smash up a new element but he can't get the shrapnel out of his body. Granted he could just be attached to the thing (and obviously there are Iconic Reasons), but part of me wanted to say Tony, I know you like to think big, but try the other direction and make some nanotech to flush out your body already ffs.

[petronia]

Which is what Warren Ellis thought (more or less), hence the Extremis storyline in the comics. XD

(Wherein Tony essentially writes a new OS for his wetware and installs it on himself using viruses(?). The suit underlayer is a nanotech thing that lives where his bone marrow used to be. The IM1 featurettes sorta sold me on this book actually, they did so many still pans over it as Ellis was talking I feel like I read half of it. XD;; There is a school of thought that this is what they're gonna do for IM3, not least because it is a very good reason why the other Avengers would not be involved in this story.)

[ayalesca]

OH that's fantastic then XDDDD I had no idea! But I'm glad, and now I REALLY want to know what goes on.

P.S. *g* you were right, IM2 was kind of a weird and weak movie, it felt like it was filler - both in that 80% of it was filler, and that it was filler for the Avengers timeline. But it had its moments.

[petronia]

Actually I think it's certain they'll do it, because they cast the secondary characters from that storyline. The entire look/feel of movie Iron Man is based off Adi Granov's work in that book anyway (because it was the only Iron Man design that makes reality-sense XD).

I just finished reading Ghost In The Shell 2, which Shirow apparently finished sometime in the last couple of years when I wasn't looking, so my current plan is to get/read the Ellis book then write a hilarious fusion in which Tony is the Internet and has Iron Mans/bots of himself stashed in sleeping-beauty chambers ready to activate all over the world. One of them is girl!Tony who looks like Mila Kunis. WHY THINK SMALL?

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Your list of laughs fits the viewing I saw, at least! Also I must note that despite having come down with a ferocious case of THE FEELS (as the tumblr kids say) for Loki in all his bag-of-cats woobie-destroyer-of-worlds glory, I still laughed as loud as anyone else at the #1-2 bits. (And then got into discussions on the OOCness of the 'adoption' line but especially in a movie such is this you can't go wrong going for the funny, as long as it is funny. And Whedon has skills in that department, undeniably.) (have you seen the interview with RDJ that he mentions how Whedon circumvented RDJ's usual policy of just improvising on any line he doesn't care for by giving him a smorgasbord, pages of optional lines and letting him choose which ones he thought were most entertaining?)

Getting Hulk right was most clearly shown by my brother, who practically jumped up and down in his seat like he was 3 instead of 30 whenever Hulk came out - he didn't realize himself how big a fanboy he was, because he'd never seen Hulk done right before.

[petronia.livejournal.com]

Yes, I read at least one interview to that effect - in fact, by circumstantial evidence the whole shawarma speech was an option Whedon came up on the fly. (No doubt after a few takes of Iron Man crashing in that street set with the Shawarma Palace shopfront... when I watched it again I was like, geez, Tony is seriously perceptive if he noticed that at the time. XD)