As the Internet proves to me once again that I'm not good hater material

[petronia]

Oddly, I'm not nearly as bothered by the anonymous hate thread/comm thingies as I am by previous iterations of the Protestant self-criticism meme in fandom (I came across this line in some socio-political text or other I read recently. Anglo Protestants built the self-criticism inherent in their religion into other aspects of their lives, including the modern democratic model. Thus the urge to self-police remains even after the religion is lost. Or something like that). In fact I find it extremely funny, a sign that I'm not taking it seriously. ^^; I've thought about it and decided this is precisely because the comments are anonymous. The adoption of anonymity demonstrates that the posters know they'd incur social consequence, or consequence period, by making these comments under their own names. Put it another way: they know they're just being assholes and blowing off steam. It's much better than being unpleasantly ranty under one's own (livejournal) name, which would tend to indicate high levels of self-righteousness, and the underlying belief that one is doing the world a favour by exposing and mocking "bad practices". (Or, as a secondary hypothesis, it would tend to indicate that the person is a vituperative ass and doesn't care who knows it.) I don't have an inherent problem with liminal behaviour as long as it's well contained within a liminal space, and fanfic_hate certainly serves that purpose. It's like cosplaying: great at a con, but you'll look a right fool dressing up as Tenjou Utena to go to the supermarket. So by all means go and leave your anonymous burning hate all over the hate comm, if you really can't keep it in, and come back a calmer and kinder person for it.

(As for the hit the ficcers presumably take from being called out: I dunno. Maybe - certainly, in fact - I'd be more bothered if someone I knew were put on the spot and made to feel miserable. Personally I don't feel threatened by the idea. Smug in my self-esteem and my native independence, I guess. XD Just as I'm not so insecure that badfic getting more gushing feedback than my own (presumably) goodfic makes me gnash my teeth, so I can't imagine getting bashed on an anonymous forum would really destroy my week. I'd be burningly curious as to whether I knew the person, and I'd probably try to discuss it with them like the dork I am - "Really? What don't you like about the characterisation?" - but bottom line, if I think it's good it's good, and everyone else can go hang.

...That being said, from experience, if a third party says there's something wrong with the fic, and they can say it in good standard English with no errors, then nine times out of ten they're right. It might take me upwards of a year to come around to their POV, but they usually are. Whether or not they're an ass about it is a separate consideration from whether or not they're right, and should be dealt with accordingly. Even so I'd vastly prefer to know if someone were bothered by my fic, or even me personally - I mean what's an Internet person supposed to say about me? "She writes pretentious crap and thinks she's so smart, but guess what, nobody cares"? how can I be insulted by that? It's 100% true XD - because I'm socially dense by nature, and in RL I've been known to put my foot in it. So actually, if anyone has an issue with me, enryo shinaide, get it out in the open. Or mail me if you don't want to make a public issue of it, and we'll set up a nice little early morning duel in a private field somewhere. XDXD)

I suppose a good deal of my view on the matter stems from the fact that I don't perceive "fandom" itself as a liminal space - it's just what I use to communicate with my more geographically disparate social circle based on interest, more or less. Other people might. But personally, I apply the same standards of politeness, restraint and transparency online as I do offline. It's not so much that I have a point to prove, merely that I see no reason to do otherwise. (And once again, so not a hater. XD I was amused enough by the hate comm that I considered posting about some fic I hated, only to reach the conclusion that I don't hate any fic enough to produce a scathingly witty comment. The feelings that badfic produce in me - bemusement, amused dismay - bear no resemblance even to minor irritation, let alone full-blown indignation.)

Comments

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

I don't know if that model really holds though. ff_hate is not supposed to be personally directed, and I actually see no reason why people should even bother being anonymous about not liking a work of fanfiction. I wrote that I hated a whole mess of fic and awhole mess of themes on my LJ, and nothing really happened. On the previous hate thread, people complained about issues which had been aired in friends-locked posts, like criticizing the child-rearing practices of people. (Besides, I really don't see self-criticism as a necessarily bad thing. Social practices serve ecological purposes, IMHO).

My issue with 90% of all fic is just that it is poorly written, period. The issue with the other seven percent is that it's just not to my taste, and that is not really criticism, but an indicator that I am not in the audience (or that I just am not clever or well-read enough to get it, really, but that goes under not in audience). I'm not sure what "right" really indicates. If what they mean is 'I personally do not find this fic produced the intended effect within myself' this obviously is just a factual statement and is obviously correct. If the person didn't like the work for whatever reason, there must be something wrong there.

The net is sort of a liminal state, psychologically, I believe, not really that fandom is. In real life, people will sometimes actually state that they do hate another person, you know. Frankly, I think that may even happen more often, because you can tell by the look on someone's face that they don't like person X. They don't need to state it publically. I just see my blog as more of a column/soapbox, and stating "I don't like fic X" is worthy material if I can get something out of it, but stating, I don't like person X personally seems rather inappropriate for a soapbox in a public park. Now, I highly disapprove of the action person X has taken might be appropriate (for my blog only, YMMV).

[meril.livejournal.com]

I actually see no reason why people should even bother being anonymous about not liking a work of fanfiction.

Two reasons I see:
A) Some people really don't want to start crap. See "Cassandra Claire, criticism of."

B) Because they don't want to directly tell one of their friends that said friend's fic has a problem.

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

a) People have criticized CC and lived, though, haven't they? I think most of the people who kneejerk retaliate in reaction to even mild criticism are mostly rabid fans who should be ignored and disregarded.

b) But is 'hate' really the most explicit explanation of that? I guess I only really 'hate' fanfiction that is very poor writing in general. The rest I disagree with or wasn't written for me.

[petronia.livejournal.com]

Oh, self-criticism is often a good thing. Especially with regard to the modern democratic model. XD I mean, I tend to say that fandom wastes virtual ink and bad feeling on issues that don't IMO deserve the indignation, but what is that but self-critique of the self-critique? XD In any case, the fact that ff_hate is not personally directed also has a lot to do with why I'm not too bothered by it. The f_w (now fw? XD) model is person(s) mocking the behaviour of person(s). The ff_hate model has nobody (an anonymous commenter doesn't really have a "presence") mocking nobody (a fic isn't a person). So it's just a lot of unfocussed vitriol, which is sometimes funny.

Right. Er... right? o_O; Something like this: "The end kind of threw me. The metaphor seems kind of heavy-handed and repetitive, IMO it's OOC for [insert chara] anyway." To which one responds (mentally if not in so many words), "Fiddlesticks, I like that metaphor and in any case the entire fic was leading up to that scene." And leaves it as is. Except then one reads it months later and goes, "Know what, you were right. The scene goes." I'm not quite sure what the precise word for this is in English, but in French you'd say une faute de goût. A failure of taste. It may not be stereotypically bad even, but you as a writer have done something "wrong". It comes down to gut instinct, so nothing one can argue really.

So: if someone says in good faith you're OOC, straining belief, overly flowery, etc., they're probably right. Even if one'd rather think they were just being an asshat. ^^; Though once again it comes back to one's own judgment: sometimes the appropriate answer is "it's meant to be unrealistic."

It's possibly to dislike someone in RL mysteriously, just because their appearence rubs one the wrong way. :P But since the net removes that factor (and also most occasions for that person to actually do something to you to cause you to dislike them, like an annoying neighbour who plays the radio too loud or a roommate who never does the dishes), my instinct is that online should be more polite than offline, not vice-versa. The last time I stated this I was roundly laughed at. XD

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

IMHO, though, the entire idea of fandom is to waste virtual ink and feeling on things that don't deserve the consideration, so I'm not suprised, really? And when people tend to invest themselves into things, they lose a bit of proportion. There is some self critique, I suppose, but it doesn't get done on FW. But why shouldn't fic be seen as a behavior whose criticism is taken personally? I don't but some do.

Rightness: Yeah, but repetitive and heavy handed and cliche, as terms, are all in the eye of the beholder. But even so, there is the meant to be unrealistic out.

I think it is totally possible to dislike someone online mysteriously. There are people whose writing I find vaguely irksome, in that the way they write about things is just annoying to read, but it's hard to explain why it bothers me. This is probably repetitive, but the reason why people online are less polite is because little is at stake. If something were, they would be more serious and not do trollish things. IRL you can't be an asshat or a troll without getting consequences. Online, the consequences are far less. Also, people online are not who and how they are in real life. After all, 90% of communication is not in the words purely.

[eightfold.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have a problem with your fic, bitch! ;P Your HikaGo stuff is really good, but it needs more Go in it!

No, seriously, peripheralsight mentioned you had written some, and I was all "yay!" and scurried off to read, and I liked it a lot. Especially the "Akira cannot hold his liquor" fic.

[petronia.livejournal.com]

Damn straight it needs more Go innit. The lack of Go is due to my suckiness at the game - I even suck at goban 5-connect. Hence, very short fic. ^^; What I really wanted to write for HnG was something to do with the human mind's capacity to construct signs of divine purpose -> deriving meaning from the random and meaningless -> pattern recognition -> the massive difficulties encountered in teaching an AI to play Go. But put it this way, I didn't even understand my own fic concept. XD All I know is other people learned to play Go, I ended up reading a lot of white papers on Go programs.

(Actually I remember reading quite a few HnG fic in which there was much Go, either literal or metaphorical. Many ficcers out there have greater Go-fu than me, not that it takes much.)

[eightfold.livejournal.com]

I'm sure you don't suck that much, she says, trolling for someone else to play against. ^_^

You should write that, really. It sounds spiffy! Shit, I'd beta, and give what pathetic Go pointers I could. The white papers are neat, though, even if the whole gnugo smart groups thing kind of baffles me, technically. (Me, I obsessively hit the 'random page' link on sensei's. Suze big nerd.)

What I want to write - and will - is something Ogata being a freak and trying to "solve" Go and being obsessed with actually proving something about the game mathematically (maybe that there's no 'ultimate starting move', but probably something with more algorithmic teeth), thus killing it as a game, moving it into 'solved problem' territory, because he is a crazy INTJ freak spaz. ... I am the only person in the world who likes Ogata, I think.

(Dude, where? Who? I mean, obviously not the Pit of Voles, but... I jones!)