The Ringed Castle (spoilers to end)

[petronia]

Random points, since I haven't fully mustered my thoughts. Mostly a placeholder, to be added to, and in case anyone wants to continue a thread from preceding posts without having to sift out spoilers. I may break out parts 2-3 of the book separately... or is that too much? (Won't really have time til this evening, anyway!)

* Reading experience was improved 19% by the existence of Danny Hislop (who, ineffably, seems to be played in my brain by John Simm). Out of all the characters in the series thus far, I think his reactions to Lymond (reactions to other ppl's reactions to Lymond, reactions to the universe's happenings in general, etc.) are closest to mine. XD This was particularly appreciated after Richard beat the crap out of Lymond and Danny Hislop was there to reflect my own SIMMERING HILARITY AND CONSPICUOUS LACK OF SYMPATHY. Perhaps eventually Richard will discover how many bros he gained that day.

Adam Blacklock on the other hand... oh, honey. Even Danny won't mock you on purpose, so you know it's bad.

* I actually do have some "nameable" mental casting for this series, which is unusual (I often picture character actors I can't pin a name to, photographic models, old paintings, acquaintances XD;). Joleta as Lily Cole; an obvious one. Philippa is basically Ariadne out of Inception Ellen Page. Christian Stewart looks like Laura Marling. The youngish John Dee is Benedict Cumberbatch. XD;

* Imma put something to you: if you take someone who is not entirely mentally stable and expose them to the dubious radioactive therapy of Lymond's focussed attention, and then you take it away, do they become more stable or less stable? WHAT DO YOU THINK?

* After everything, we've somehow not managed to solve the question of how Marthe is Lymond's sister. orz

* You finally get to meet Margaret's baby Henry, that Lymond threatens so volubly in GoK. HOLY SHIT IT'S DRACO MALFOY GET IN THE CAR.

* There's a difference between levelling up Philippa so she can believably hold up half of the plot, and levelling up Philippa for Lymond. Don't feel latter efforts are necessary. XD He's damned lucky any Somerville deigned to mark his existence. I also don't need them to be arch and exhausting at each other - I mean, by this point? It's a matter of taste. I like it better when they don't talk and instead do the tactical intrigue equivalent of a blind pass down the length of the ice. No way did you see that puck coming!

* Thing is... apparently I can reconstruct Lymond's emotional life from will o' the wisps, bawling. It's hard to avoid literary progeny when the reading of your book depends on modelling your character as if he were one's own from the first; and on the shelf it goes, in a corner of one's mental workshop, forever... neat trick. Anyway, I'm looking forward to the pure idiocy he's going to display in the final book. But not 'til after Barcelona.

* The Song of Baida is vaguely homoerotic. This isn't just me, right?

Comments

[applegnat.livejournal.com]

Picking up re. last comment.

Imma put something to you: if you take someone who is not entirely mentally stable and expose them to the dubious radioactive therapy of Lymond's focussed attention, and then you take it away, do they become more stable or less stable? WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Who have ye known to die without the help of a potecary? Only Mariotta seems to have escaped unscathed so far. Everyone else is shaken to the very core. Or dead. Was there someone in particular of whom you were thinking here?

He's damned lucky any Somerville deigned to mark his existence.

Y! Although it's interesting to see Kate misstep mildly here as well in her concern for Sibylla. Philippa's whole interest in his forebears and heirs has generally required all suspension of disbelief for me so far, particularly since she's so well-drawn as a, well, a Somerville. Philippa creates amazing adventures for herself, but the narrative so far requires a bit of a leap in re. her doing so out of the kindness of her heart and her loyalty to a friend of a Somerville. Meanwhile, poor Marthe has an adventure ostensibly for the heck of it, and all she gets in return - ostensibly - is the dissolution of her grand plan of banditry, and a husband to whom her whole attitude so far has been NOT SURE IF WANT. Moral of the story? As long as you are invested in Lymond's welfare everything will be okay? ...... Anyway, magnificences of idiocy are in store for you when you return from Barcelona. Of course, other magnificences are in store for you in Barcelona so. Have fun! Be well!

Also, "Do you call her Slata? Or Baba?" I LOLed.

[supacat.livejournal.com]

Imma put something to you: if you take someone who is not entirely mentally stable and expose them to the dubious radioactive therapy of Lymond's focussed attention, and then you take it away, do they become more stable or less stable? WHAT DO YOU THINK?

When it comes to Ivan HISTORY WOULD SEEM TO IMPLY. Etc. I personally think it would be the mental equivalent of being coaxed from the ledge to come sit down only to have someone whisk the chair away at the last minute.

[petronia.livejournal.com]

I was thinking of Ivan, though really in the sense of: for some reason Lymond still hasn't adjusted for this as a risk factor. Hero worship, yes. The fact that if he's not careful he gets ppl killed, yes. But the fact that sometimes, if the personality is fissured to begin with, they don't learn to stand up for themselves, they just crack...

Somervilles only ever misstep out of concern, although they can misstep pretty badly. As I keep saying, Philippa should've let Lymond kill Graham Reid Malett right there in that church. = = I basically accepted a priori that she was really into babies and child welfare and carried on from there. Which is not a bad trait, it's entirely likeable of her, but Marthe actually getting to be the gay French Muslim Lara Croft she wants to be would have balanced the party, bawling.

[petronia.livejournal.com]

I just felt like Lymond had this REALLY BIZARRE selective blindness about Ivan. Everybody's like, dude, he's pretty crazy. You sure he's not crazy-crazy? And Lymond's like, no no! No! I got this! And it strikes me as bizarre because this was the root of the Robin Stewart tragedy - Lymond misjudging how far he can push a fractured personality, or not properly perceiving the extent of the fracturedness to begin with. On this really basic unthinking level he seems to assume that, yanno, shore them up, educate them, it'll make them stronger in the long run. Even though he must've been intentionally making Ivan dependent on him; Lymond's not disingenuous.

[supacat.livejournal.com]

I'm soooo far behind you on my re-read (I'm still in Djerba crashing through the Aga's tent!) so this is from dusty memory, but there was a lot swirling around with Lymond when it came to Ivan, selective blindness for sure, a need to prove that he could perform like a machine forever, self-destructive fatalism, and a kind of horrifying necessity, if he didn't do this, no one else would or could. He had to be like 'I got this.'

Even though he must've been intentionally making Ivan dependent on him; Lymond's not disingenuous.

Yeah. He wants Russia. Badly. The power behind the throne of an empire is the job he's been made for, built for, crafted for, and he knows it.

[supacat.livejournal.com]

Marthe actually getting to be the gay French Muslim Lara Croft she wants to be would have balanced the party, bawling.

I THINK I MAY BE IN LOVE WITH THIS COMMENT

[petronia.livejournal.com]

Back in the 21st century, this could be a moneymaker. At least Fandom would dig it. XD

[supacat.livejournal.com]

Speaking of matters of taste, representing those who read these books as an adolescent, I'll front: not only did I embarrassingly empathise with Lymond's repressed fascist-aesthete strategic-thinking over-achiever problems being a repressed fascist-aesthete strategic-thinking over-achiever myself, I also was madly in love actually with Lymond. Even in later readings where my jaded older self is all FRANCIS I CALL SHENANIGANS there is a part of me that is always *______* LYMOND FOREVER.

The Danny types with their conspicuous lack of sympathy -- Jerott had a few shining instances -- at fifteen whipped all my feelings into a wild frenzy because they didn't see Lymond's pain -- it was amazing LOL. It's a pretty obvious narrative trick in hindsight. I mean, I've used it: having characters who are unsympathetic to your hero's extremes of behaviour allows you to retain readers while your hero behaves unsympathetically all over the place.

I remember loving the arch Phillipa dialogues because I loved seeing him matched, finally, finally. I am still forever stunned at those relentless dialogue set pieces, the high-wire tension act for pages at a time. I know they're not to your taste, but they're totally to mine, I'd kill to be able to write them, or something like them.

Phillipa's levelling up: it irked me too, it even irked my younger self, but not the fact of it, the handling of it, since I felt that each bit (the harem, the reading, the languages) was given in rushed strokes, not quite fleshed out enough to be believable. Lymond had a similar levelling up -- commander of Russia's armies is not a job title he could have held at twenty in GoK -- but his progression was gradual and organic enough that it felt believable. (For those definitions of 'believable' that apply in this narrative.)

[petronia.livejournal.com]

The thing about Danny, though... I mean, Jerott is grumpy, he scoffs, he's resistant. Danny doesn't resist; if anything he finds Lymond passionately interesting. (And gorgeous! Can't forget gorgeous!) But there's a coolness to his nature, and the more absorbed he is in the vortex, the more lulz he registers. XD; In a way, he's a reflection of Lymond just like Mikal - Lymond loses his sense of humour in book 5 and has to learn how to laugh again, so Danny externalizes that ongoing awareness of the inherent ridiculousness of the situation.

To be fair I would have eaten up The Philippa Dialogues when I was a teen, and even later. I loved that shiz in Sayers. The volte-face on banter is an artifact of maturity. XD; It has something to do with how I (learnt to) make conversation in reality, I suspect, but I'm not sure of the precise cause-effect.

I didn't mind the harem! It was kind of baffling (idk why I had this idea that Dunnett wasn't going to do hoary cliches XD;;), but in the context of what was going on in Philippa's head, getting a makeover was a side-effect. Then the rest was all telescoped into half a book. ...I feel like there were two massive upshifts in Lymond's otherwise organic progress: post-QP, and post-PiF. To the point that the Lymond in the opening chapters of tDK is, mildly disorientingly, not the Lymond you get in the rest of the book.

[applegnat.livejournal.com]

He's pretty damaged himself at this point, and I think he invites himself into this quagmire because he's not, contrary to all appearances, thinking clearly. He forces himself to do things in his relationship with Ivan that anyone with his experience, even his nature, which rejects leadership, no matter how collegial, because he has never required it, should not do. In his favour, he expects to die in Ivan's or Russia's service, I suppose, so he's never thought of going away and leaving his plans, perhaps even this man for whom he may or may not have developed some affection even though he has to call him "little father" and play chess with (only to vomit after * restrains self a lot *) to shatter and defeat the very things he has tried to protect.

Marthe actually getting to be the gay French Muslim Lara Croft she wants to be would have balanced the party, bawling.

Gosh, yes. All poor intractable stallion Jerott needed was a lump of sugar and he would have been a pirate for her sake. But she would have detested that even more than his intractability. Marthe. You get my heart so much. (Jerott gets my heart too, he's my favourite in the books and always has been, but OKAY ANYWAY LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS AFTER YOU ARE BACK FROM HOLIDAY AND HAVE READ CHECKMATE).

[applegnat.livejournal.com]

I remember loving the arch Phillipa dialogues because I loved seeing him matched, finally, finally.

I love the banter too -- and I love that you can obliquely see why Lymond adores Kate and Sibylla, from whom he's learned the habit.

One of the things I distrust about the levelling is that as it progresses we retreat from Philippa as a character who speculates, to Philippa the character who is speculated about. It goes beyond a simple PoV/no PoV dichotomy, but there is an inevitable hardening -- she becomes a character who fights with the same tools as Lymond does, and is revealed to the others in the same dimensions as he is. I still think she's at her very best in this book, but I miss the immersive passions of her PiF sections.

The Danny types with their conspicuous lack of sympathy -- Jerott had a few shining instances -- at fifteen whipped all my feelings into a wild frenzy because they didn't see Lymond's pain -- it was amazing LOL.

I can only imagine! I read these as a non-adolescent so my colours have been all too often nailed to their mast. But once you've read the series through it's amazing how that changes from reading to reading. We can never go back to GoK again. :)

[supacat.livejournal.com]

forces himself to do things in his relationship with Ivan that anyone with his experience, even his nature, which rejects leadership, no matter how collegial, because he has never required it, should not do.

It's the only major female-gendered role that he hadn't inhabited yet, trying to command through someone else, without direct agency himself, queen to the king.

[petronia.livejournal.com]

French maid outfit or GTFO, Lymond. (Although he does serve Ivan his midnight snack at one point.)

[petronia.livejournal.com]

He forces himself to do things in his relationship with Ivan that anyone with his experience, even his nature, which rejects leadership, no matter how collegial, because he has never required it, should not do

I always wince at Lymond's interviews with Marie de Guise, because she just does not know how to handle him. I sit there like, no no no! The trick is NOT paying him, do you see!

[supacat.livejournal.com]

I never completely clicked with Phillipa, though ironically I was invested in the romance because I felt overwhelmingly it was what Lymond needed (I never felt Phillipa needed it, oddly enough).

But once you've read the series through it's amazing how that changes from reading to reading. We can never go back to GoK again. :)

Yeah, and that's even more true with Niccolo, which I must have reread twenty times, experiencing a wholly different narrative each time. Lymond only sustained so many rereadings before I bottomed out, but Niccolo is on this completely other plane of existence as a series.

But god, I remember the first time I reread GoK and there was Lymond with his sparkling quotations and fizzy frothy energy and I was all OH GOD YOU ARE SO YOUNG YOU ARE A BABY and the whole journey was much more tragic right from the beginning, because you make it knowing your destination is PiF and all its various aftershocks.

[supacat.livejournal.com]

There's still one more book to go, I'M JUST SAYING.


Lymond, bringing Ivan the Terrible a midnight snack since 1554.

[petronia.livejournal.com]

On Being In Love With Lymond: I have to assume that I would have been, if I'd read these at 15. I serially crushed on his antecedents, from Prince Hal to Sir Percy to Lord Peter. XD; (Lymond is the most exhausting one, though. He's sort of... you know how dinosaurs evolved from lizards and grew bigger and bigger until a meteorite killed off all the big ones and left the little ones, which were birds? Lymond is Tyrannosaurus Rex.) I still like him a lot, though at this precise point I'm a bit resentful of the brainspace my model of his psyche is taking up. XD; I'm also older than Margaret Lennox was at the time of Lymond's first underaged shenanigans, which puts some perspective on it: I find myself sitting there like, Geez, Meg, what were you thinking? ...Leading me to ponder Texas!Shinichi (http://petronia.livejournal.com/699563.html), who did have blue eyes and act-of-God lashes, not to mention a solidly-built brown-haired older brother and an intimidating mother, both of whom I met. I remember thinking at the time that there was something oddly archetypal about this family makeup; like it could have been predicted. The analogy doesn't completely help, since I'm much more Danny Hislop than Meg Lennox XD;; As in, this kid was a rarefied individual, including but not limited to the warping social effect of his physical appearance and self-assurance, and was basically just really interesting. I made several other friends down there, of dudes ranging from mid-20s to late-40s; in any case I haven't interacted with teenaged guys since I was a teenager XD; so I treated him and his friends as if they were part of the same nebulous "grownups" bracket. But I ran straight into this weird inherent ambiguity, like there's some cutoff whereby 30-year-old women can't make friends with 17-year-old guys. Of course, then, me being me, I kept hanging out with him in part because nobody quite knew what to make of it. His mom asked me straight out how old I was, and I pulled the Elizabeth Bennet plea... So the part where this was the most interesting thing to happen to the 27-year-old Margaret Lennox all year, I can sort of grok. But I don't get why she's not over it.

Of course, in the now-time of my reading Lymond is precisely my age, and seems older. I have a sense that the ages in the LC would generally have felt much more congruent when I was 15, mid-20s meant mature, and mid-30s impossibly middle-aged; but they're not actually congruent. Philippa maternal with Kuzum at 15, Margaret Erskine a sensible matron at 19. Agnes Herries married at 14. But Joleta still considered a child, somehow, and Venceslas too. (What was up with that? Did Lymond finally sleep with Guzel in part because the poor kid shouldn't have to serve as bed-warmer? XD; I suppose, between the two of them, that's not really a horrifying consideration.)

[petronia.livejournal.com]

Starting with tDK, when I thought about GoK!Lymond I got reminded of Evelyn Waugh's eventual critique of Brideshead Revisited. You know - "It was a bleak period of present privation and threatening disaster, and in consequence the book is infused with a kind of gluttony, for food and wine, for the splendours of the recent past, and for rhetorical and ornamental language..."

(The quote's in Wikipedia, so perhaps others find it as telling as I do; I've always thought that if one wanted to write a very rich book one would have to live very soberly. Sayers had something similar to say about the genesis of the Wimsey fortune. XD)