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petroniaFinished book 2 and re-scanned through book 1. I left all my comments in the other posts so I'll talk about... Oonagh I guess? Who I am glad got out of her awful situation, even if it apparently took a two-part intervention by Lymond and O'LiamRoe. They/the narrative assumes she's bound by sunk costs and what I'd call false consciousness, rather than entrapment within a cycle of abuse per se. Though where you draw that line... I didn't expect Lymond to sleep with her. XD; Mind you - speaking of Angélique - she would have done exactly that, and with exactly that set of motives. Which puzzled me all the more, because (other than being possessed of unearthly beauty, intelligence, willpower, and sexual allure) Angélique and Lymond are very different people. It made me wonder what went on with d'Enghien and Henri's sister et al XD; not out of prurience, but because I now LACKED DATA. There's something to be said for modern fanfiction's propensity for turning sex scenes into play-by-plays of psychological revelation and resolution, without any of the flowery fill-in-blanks stuff.
The equivalent intervention in book 1 would be... Agnes Herries, I suppose, who holds a mirror to us all. My CLAMP-rotted sensibilities found the whole setup with the Master of Maxwell adorable, even though looked at another way, it is horrific. Like most of Lymond's schemes. (Interestingly, this is a trait of Alec's in Swordspoint - the underhanded arranging of breathing space for young ladies, if not outright settei-inappropriate self-determination - though Kushner arrived at it independently, I think.) But srsly: as soon as I realized Lymond had been dungeoned in Maxwell-Herries territory I started laughing and couldn't stop. Just picturing how rescuing him would make Agnes Herries' DECADE.
Other notes, not bringing relevant quotes here, just conclusions:
The flashpoint of tension that was music in the Culter household. Richard can't be much more than five years older than Lymond (though not less than two), so unless Sybilla had children who died, she married much older than usual for the period. Counting Eloise, Lymond's familial composition is a match for Lord Peter Wimsey's.
On this re-read, I realized Richard assumed Lymond was sleeping with Will Scott. orz His father doesn't, small mercies, and the rest is lawyer talk. Will Scott himself seems largely oblivious. I don't know when Lymond had time to acquire this reputation while still in Scotland, frankly. But putting together the conversational evidence of the two books, Richard had long since slotted Lymond's proclivities into the column "Things I am Equable(tm) about", which is why Lymond feels safe tweaking him. I mean, everyone involved can wield a sword in combat, so there is no issue really.
I also wrote out a chronology of Lymond's prequel adventures, because I hadn't been paying attention - I was like, oh it will be explained if/when it becomes important! Then I had the horrible thought that no, Dunnett's stated all the data once, she's assuming I proceed with conclusions duly drawn. XD; Thus.
1542: Lymond is taken prisoner (and wounded, it would appear) at Solway Moss. He spends three days in the Tower. All the other Scottish nobles take an oath to Henry VIII with their fingers crossed behind their backs, and get sent home. Given the same 10-day period, Lymond inexplicably ends up boarding with the Douglas (and meets Margaret?), embroils himself in intrigue, overhears English plans he shouldn't, probably sleeps with Margaret, and is given a MANOR by Henry in order to shut him up / tie him to England / mitigate Margaret-being-Margaret. Margaret, not being mitigated enough, instigates the fake letter incident so that Lymond can't go home. Then Lymond is bundled off to Calais, ostensibly to avoid vengeful Scottish hotheads, essentially to be handed over to France (definitely Henry; Margaret may get a teeny bit of benefit of the doubt on this).
NB: I thought while reading book 2 that this manor was Sevigny, but that one's French. Now, like Richard, I have no idea how Lymond came to acquireChloe Sevigny. He may actually still own a manor in England, if no one's remembered to take it away from him. These nobles are rather on the order of multinational conglomerates. Also, Lymond is approx nine years old at this point.
1543-1544: Lymond rows for France (though not, I gather, in winter). March, Lennox notes him (...recognizes Y/N? I have a feeling that if Lymond meant "recognized" he would have said so) while travelling from France to Scotland; September, return trip with gold for Marie de Guise. Sometime during either/both of these trips Lymond figures out that Lennox is set to defect to England, which argues he wasn't chained to the bench the entire time. The months get a bit muddled here, but probably early '44 Lymond convinces Lennox to free him and take him... home, in fact (Lennox's, not Lymond's). Lennox defects to England in May '44, and shortly before (or after) Lymond defects from him, taking a portion of the gold which he then returns to the Dowager through various means. Meanwhile, Lennox marries Margaret Douglas, AND THEY NEVER HAVE A REAL CONVERSATION ABOUT LYMOND EVER. Or maybe they do!
NB: Geebus, how dodgy is this Lennox episode when written out? And I thought he hated Lymond because he was all up in his wife's bidness. I honestly don't know what Lymond expected Will Scott to understand of his conversation with Margaret.
1545: Lennox didn't tell anyone about Lymond or the missing gold, which informational gap Lymond proceeds to build on by offering Wharton his services, then leading the English forces into a trap. Wharton puts an English price on Lymond's head, and Lymond heads for the Continent.
1545-1547: Lymond puts together his mercenaries. Buckles swash all the way out to, like, Poland(?), then makes his way back.
1547 summer: proper beginning of book 1, which ends in August 1548.
...It's got the bones of a h/c classic Dunnett plotted out in tedious detail then got bored of writing in the proper order of events. XD;
AND NOW I'M GOING TO FINISH WATCHING MADOKA, F'REALS.
(Behind on Doctor Who again! I will never catch up.)
The equivalent intervention in book 1 would be... Agnes Herries, I suppose, who holds a mirror to us all. My CLAMP-rotted sensibilities found the whole setup with the Master of Maxwell adorable, even though looked at another way, it is horrific. Like most of Lymond's schemes. (Interestingly, this is a trait of Alec's in Swordspoint - the underhanded arranging of breathing space for young ladies, if not outright settei-inappropriate self-determination - though Kushner arrived at it independently, I think.) But srsly: as soon as I realized Lymond had been dungeoned in Maxwell-Herries territory I started laughing and couldn't stop. Just picturing how rescuing him would make Agnes Herries' DECADE.
Other notes, not bringing relevant quotes here, just conclusions:
The flashpoint of tension that was music in the Culter household. Richard can't be much more than five years older than Lymond (though not less than two), so unless Sybilla had children who died, she married much older than usual for the period. Counting Eloise, Lymond's familial composition is a match for Lord Peter Wimsey's.
On this re-read, I realized Richard assumed Lymond was sleeping with Will Scott. orz His father doesn't, small mercies, and the rest is lawyer talk. Will Scott himself seems largely oblivious. I don't know when Lymond had time to acquire this reputation while still in Scotland, frankly. But putting together the conversational evidence of the two books, Richard had long since slotted Lymond's proclivities into the column "Things I am Equable(tm) about", which is why Lymond feels safe tweaking him. I mean, everyone involved can wield a sword in combat, so there is no issue really.
I also wrote out a chronology of Lymond's prequel adventures, because I hadn't been paying attention - I was like, oh it will be explained if/when it becomes important! Then I had the horrible thought that no, Dunnett's stated all the data once, she's assuming I proceed with conclusions duly drawn. XD; Thus.
1542: Lymond is taken prisoner (and wounded, it would appear) at Solway Moss. He spends three days in the Tower. All the other Scottish nobles take an oath to Henry VIII with their fingers crossed behind their backs, and get sent home. Given the same 10-day period, Lymond inexplicably ends up boarding with the Douglas (and meets Margaret?), embroils himself in intrigue, overhears English plans he shouldn't, probably sleeps with Margaret, and is given a MANOR by Henry in order to shut him up / tie him to England / mitigate Margaret-being-Margaret. Margaret, not being mitigated enough, instigates the fake letter incident so that Lymond can't go home. Then Lymond is bundled off to Calais, ostensibly to avoid vengeful Scottish hotheads, essentially to be handed over to France (definitely Henry; Margaret may get a teeny bit of benefit of the doubt on this).
NB: I thought while reading book 2 that this manor was Sevigny, but that one's French. Now, like Richard, I have no idea how Lymond came to acquire
1543-1544: Lymond rows for France (though not, I gather, in winter). March, Lennox notes him (...recognizes Y/N? I have a feeling that if Lymond meant "recognized" he would have said so) while travelling from France to Scotland; September, return trip with gold for Marie de Guise. Sometime during either/both of these trips Lymond figures out that Lennox is set to defect to England, which argues he wasn't chained to the bench the entire time. The months get a bit muddled here, but probably early '44 Lymond convinces Lennox to free him and take him... home, in fact (Lennox's, not Lymond's). Lennox defects to England in May '44, and shortly before (or after) Lymond defects from him, taking a portion of the gold which he then returns to the Dowager through various means. Meanwhile, Lennox marries Margaret Douglas, AND THEY NEVER HAVE A REAL CONVERSATION ABOUT LYMOND EVER. Or maybe they do!
NB: Geebus, how dodgy is this Lennox episode when written out? And I thought he hated Lymond because he was all up in his wife's bidness. I honestly don't know what Lymond expected Will Scott to understand of his conversation with Margaret.
1545: Lennox didn't tell anyone about Lymond or the missing gold, which informational gap Lymond proceeds to build on by offering Wharton his services, then leading the English forces into a trap. Wharton puts an English price on Lymond's head, and Lymond heads for the Continent.
1545-1547: Lymond puts together his mercenaries. Buckles swash all the way out to, like, Poland(?), then makes his way back.
1547 summer: proper beginning of book 1, which ends in August 1548.
...It's got the bones of a h/c classic Dunnett plotted out in tedious detail then got bored of writing in the proper order of events. XD;
AND NOW I'M GOING TO FINISH WATCHING MADOKA, F'REALS.
(Behind on Doctor Who again! I will never catch up.)
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no subject
Date: 2011-05-02 05:54 am (UTC)Reread more -- there's a line where Will makes it clear he'd gladly take Lymond to bed. Pointed it out to my mom and she cracked up: she didn't notice when she read it, but she didn't argue when I pointed it out.
Hmm, apparently the author helped write the cliffs notes: http://www.amazon.com/Dorothy-Dunnett-Companion-Elspeth-Morrison/dp/0375725873/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1304315965&sr=1-1
If I ever reread the whole thing, I think I'll pick that up just to have a fighting chance.
no subject
Date: 2011-05-02 09:56 am (UTC)panting for iteven more Equable to the idea than Richard. (In the trial scene from memory pretty much everyone is assuming Will Scott was sleeping with Lymond including Will's father.)I LOVE YOUR TIMELINE COMPLETELY HEARTMARK X 1 MILLION
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Date: 2011-05-02 04:14 pm (UTC)Writing galley slavefic: ummmmmmmmmmm. Oh my god. You can't tease me with this shit you. (DO IT PLZ. :D:D:D:D)
Re: your earlier comment about being busy this weekend and not having time for DK quite yet: HOW DAMNED INCONVENIENT IT IS THAT MY INTERNET FRIENDS HAVE LIVES OUTSIDE OF CATERING TO MY EVERY WHIM. XD Anyway I hope everything was very fun. And at least this means I get to forestall RC, and thus the ending of the series, for a little while longer.
(Slavefic: please? YOU CAN TAKE POINTERS FROM CAT'S CP LULZ. :D:D:D:D:D)
no subject
Date: 2011-05-02 05:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-02 05:17 pm (UTC)I really needed to build that timeline! I had mistaken assumptions x 10. WTF happened with Lennox there, crying
P.S. Do you remember when and who Lymond taught to play strip poker? I cannot find this scene and damned if I think I imagined it.
Re: this post warrants a special icon
Date: 2011-05-02 05:59 pm (UTC)The Richard bit was when he was trying to break Lymond with sarcasm. Which was hilarious, that Richard actually has this entire toolkit at his disposal too - the edged remarks about missing the love of corruptible young boys etc. - he just chooses not to use it, same way as Lymond chose as a kid not to do dumb manly athletic shiz if he didn't have to. But if he's stuck with Lymond in a cave with no other witnesses, that's a different story.
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Date: 2011-05-02 07:02 pm (UTC)Re: this post warrants a special icon
Date: 2011-05-02 09:01 pm (UTC)Re: this post warrants a special icon
Date: 2011-05-02 11:09 pm (UTC)Where there is no custom of reticence in childhood, there is no vice of which a well-brought-up young man need be ignorant--even a young man who three months before has cherished the purest ideals. When Will Scott got to his feet, his heartbeats were behaving oddly, but he was not slow in following the Master across the jammed, legstrewn room, up a dark stairway leading from arcade to gallery, and along a long, stifling passage railed off on one side from the room they had just left.
(...I feel like just retyping that sentence is teaching me about exposition, look at all the detail about the room layout that she sneaks in there!)
Also, apologies I initially replied with this in the wrong place, in my overeagerness to share details about Will Scott's bicuriousity. ;D
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Date: 2011-05-02 11:23 pm (UTC)Strip poker was at the Ostrich too, I think. Was it Molly and the girls? (But who taught Lymond how to play strip poker?)
Re: this post warrants a special icon
Date: 2011-05-02 11:47 pm (UTC)It actually sounded to me as if Lennox was having paternity doubts, but surely the timeline doesn't support Lymond having anything to do with this!?!
Is this what you're missing?
Re: this post warrants a special icon
Date: 2011-05-03 12:11 am (UTC)Re: this post warrants a special icon
Date: 2011-05-03 12:20 am (UTC)I don't think I missed anything else in GoK, dying, I read backwards all the way to like page 57 for Lennox's first meeting with the resurrected Lymond. This book has to go back to the library by 10PM today. (And, since Will Scott was there, perhaps theoretically he could have gotten something out of the talk with Margaret thereafter. Lymond thinks more of him than of the average Dunnett reader, I suppose. XD;)
Re: this post warrants a special icon
Date: 2011-05-03 12:22 am (UTC)And Sabina, re: your comments pointing out the other relevant slashy parts, I am doing the digital equivalent of plugging my fingers into my ears and singing LALALA really loudly and obnoxiously because I will in all probability reread GoK soon and I'd like to discover it all for myself! Ahaha. ALSO PLZ START DK SOON, DYING TO HAVE YOUR THOUGHTS ON IT.
Re: this post warrants a special icon
Date: 2011-05-03 12:22 am (UTC)Re: this post warrants a special icon
Date: 2011-05-03 01:26 am (UTC)If we're talking about the Lennox stuff, it comes into sharper focus later on, but it is all embedded in GoK, even if between the lines.
If we're talking instead about, um, something further that unfolds in books 5&6, then no, that absolutely is not referenced in GoK -- BUT it is pointed to several times in QP, so that by the time I had finished QP I had it as basic information moving forward, yeah.
Either way, the Lennox conversation is understandable -- I don't think Dunnett ever gives you one of those conversation-moments without at least some tools for understanding it already in play. Sometimes the moment itself is the tool.
I do think readers lightbulb with the various information arcs in Dunnett at different times, and that Dunnett writes for this to happen, actually -- so she doesn't usually write a single lightbulb moment but a series of cumulative hints, equally oblique.
Sabina, I would just file the hairy eyeball under Hmmm, and forge on. ;D
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Date: 2011-05-03 05:39 am (UTC)Re: this post warrants a special icon
Date: 2011-05-03 04:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-11 08:58 pm (UTC)crying
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Date: 2012-09-14 05:15 am (UTC)