Warnings

[petronia]

I think the reason this has been so incoherent is because anti-warnings people don't actually know why warnings rub them the wrong way, to the extent that they're willing to be assholes about it. The whole idea certain rubs me the wrong way - violently - and I have been an ass about it in the past, and I still don't know why this is. But at least I'm honest with myself (and you XD;) regarding that.

It is not consistent either. Like, in practice I'm pretty sure that when I've written shota/dubcon in the past I've warned for it, if not formally then words to that effect. (Maybe I just don't like the idea of formally labelling everything? A story is not a list of ingredients. For fun Charmian made up a warning tag list for The Alexandria Quartet last night, and it was like, what sort of book would you imagine if you saw this?) I'll see myself banned from fandom before I slap a deathfic warning on "A Proof By Contradiction", though. Of course third-party reccers can do as they like.

Comments

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Maybe I just don't like the idea of formally labelling everything?

Could it be? Yeah. The reductionist aspect of it is what rubs *my* fur the wrong way.

[aishuu.livejournal.com]

Warnings annoy the heck out of me, since sometimes warning for a specific pairing/plot device can utterly spoil the fic...

[troisroyaumes]

I definitely have to admit that if there were a deathfic warning for "A Proof By Contradiction", it would have considerably ruined my reading experience of it. (I'm kind of glad that we managed to post it without warnings in the first round.)

All that being said, I guess now that the pro-warning argument has been re-framed in terms of triggers, it really does convince me to work at some sort of compromise, at least for myself...

[meril.livejournal.com]

On one level I see the point behind people who really do suffer some sort of mental injury by this sort of thing wanting to be spoilt ahead of time (for that is what it is) but on the other hand, this culture of oversharing and perpetual victimhood bothers the heck out of me too. (I'll just simply say that my cultural upbringing states that "nobody gives a damn about your damage but yourself" and leave it at that.)

[two-if-by-sea.livejournal.com]

anti-warnings people don't actually know why warnings rub them the wrong way, to the extent that they're willing to be assholes about it

This is not a particularly positive statement for you to have made (XD) but thank god for you, this is totally it, I've been struggling all day to figure out why we go through these same cycles of arguments over and over again and I think that's the reason. Because while the pro-warning side has a specific, well, bone to pick, the anti-warning side seems to be consistently just poking back hysterically with pitchforks and going, "...AND STAY OUT OF MY LAWN >:E!" without being able to articulate why.

[supplanter.livejournal.com]

SO WHAT'S THE PROBLEM YOU HAVE WITH FURRIES, HUH

... has something been going on? XD  Where do these things go on, anyway, I'm always so disconnected until you or charmian or someone brings something up....

My very long winded 2c.

[penguinparity.livejournal.com]

I don't know, I think there are gradations on the issue. Like, if a story is driven by plot and a character's death is only ancillary to that, is a warning necessary? In my opinion, probably not. Whereas, if a story is 1500 words long and solely focused on character X's response to the contrived death of character Y, doesn't that probably merit a warning?

But there are some warnings that I think, absolutely, should be labeled. Non-con and child molestation, to name two. Is it reductionist? Yeah. But so is labeling stories slash, het, yaoi, or naming specific pairings, isn't it?

As someone who was molested, I really have -zero- desire to read detailed descriptions of non-con or molestation in fic. I guess you could say it is kind of a trigger? But I have, in some ways, come to grips with my own experiences. My problem is more that the majority of fic I have read that touch on the subject tend to well....romanticize or almost fetishize the subject. It is revolting to me on a very fundamental level.

As an example, in the Criminal Minds fandom I have this recurring problem. It is canon for the show that one of the main characters was molested as a boy. In the show, he reacts and attempts to cover up the evidence of this molestation in a fairly realistic manner. Now, in fic, I have repeatedly come across stories where there is no warnings and then *bam* in the middle of the story a detailed narrative of the molestation. Ok, so I can't complain too much, it's canon after all, right? Except these fic frequently eroticize the molestation, and suddenly the very masculine and emotionally distant main character is weeping or talking about how he's so ashamed of how he's really dirty on the inside. Or trying to wash away the memory of the molestation by sleeping with _____ male protagonist because he's now in love.

I just. I don't know. I get that if you haven't been abused it's probably hard to understand what kind of emotional ennui that brings with it. And I'm not saying that doesn't mean a person can't write it if they haven't lived it. But as someone who has lived it, I'd like some fair warning so I can chose to give it a wide berth.

and my icon applied to me, apparently

[penguinparity.livejournal.com]

It also occurs to me, upon rereading your original post, that you are not actually arguing against warnings at all. So I just wrote a very long winded response to a post you didn't actually write.

Go me!

[briar_pipe]

Since I personally am very anti-warning but have friends who have triggers, I've gotten around this by making links to warnings at the bottom for things I think might be triggers. I can think of at least two stories besides "A Proof By Contradiction" that I was glad weren't warned for, because then I would have been waiting for the fallout instead of experiencing the story.

I actually detest warnings for things like slash or het, though because of community rules I've had to put "poly" on some of my fics. It makes me irrationally angry, probably because, as you say, it encourages stereotypes.

"O hai it's poly, must be a pwp orgy, right?" *facepalm*

[petronia.livejournal.com]

Half that and half meril's thing about cultural upbringing, I suspect. (I have a similar but not identical problem with the RaceFail discussion - it hit the point where people were demonstrating sensitivity by apologizing in advance for crimes not committed, which was just way too Cultural Revolution for my taste.)

[petronia.livejournal.com]

Ahahaha ask Charmian for the links, I really can't bring myself. It was not a hugely productive debate. XD;;

[petronia.livejournal.com]

Glad someone else senses this, because it could've been just me. But I am very anti-warnings, and I think most of what they've been throwing out is BS. XD; Yet it definitely touches on something psychologically deep-rooted - it's "triggery", ironically - so when the stakes are as high as someone's mental health on the other side (the abuse survivors etc.), isn't it worth it to figure out what's really going on rather than all this displacement nonsense. Is what I think, anyway.

Re: and my icon applied to me, apparently

[petronia.livejournal.com]

I appreciate the response, though! To be honest, yours and other similar perspectives are the only reason (and I think it's an important reason) I would put warnings on anything. Everyone else can learn that the Internet doesn't exist to maintain one's comfort zone, quite the opposite. XD;

If I could get away with not labelling things slash, BL, yaoi, gen etc. I would. (In fact I mostly do get away with it.) To be fair, it's not so much an issue for me personally in that I rarely write anything that could be construed as disturbing. ^^;

[petronia.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this. I am always torn weirdly between actual caring (because I am not a robot or a sociopath) and a sort of outraged "WTF would you expect me, a stranger on the Internet, to take your issues into account?" XD;

I think we agree that the idea of fandom being a "safe space" is dumb to begin with.

[woodburner.livejournal.com]

I am kind of torn on this issue because on the one hand, there are people with serious emotional triggers that are not just a matter of getting squicked and saying "ew" and hitting the back button. And I, personally, do not care much one way or the other and generally slap warnings on my fics where appropriate. However, though I'm not anti-warnings, 1) something about people expecting me to do something in my own personal space makes me feel like a wet cat with attendant crankiness and tendency to lash out and 2) as you said somewhere above, we all know that fandom is not a safe space to begin with. I have also seen some pretty ridiculous arguments on both sides of the issue that just make me want to bang my head against a wall.

But in the end I think people really should at least clearly state "I do not give warnings" if they're anti-warning. It's a simple enough thing to do.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Granted, my upbringing says Whine away; I still figure that avoiding triggering people for things like rape and child abuse, when posting to archives and communities, is in the same category as putting ramps and automatic doors on public buildings.

Cultural Revolution

Yes, *exactly*. I kept hearing huge CR riffs throughout this. Also the early woman's movement when everyone was so considerate of everyone else's space that nothing could be said without a million disclaimers. (Except by the bullies, who worked the system to shut everyone else up. God the 70s sucked. Not that certain 'feminists' ever stopped doing that, mind.)

[two-if-by-sea.livejournal.com]

I think it's definitely, definitely, definitely worth it to figure out why someone is vehemently anti-warnings, if nothing else so you can explain to someone why you, well, basically don't want them to read your fic without fearing they'll smack into a trigger in the middle of it. XD ahaha that sounds terrible, but I hope you know what I mean. Like I sincerely doubt most of the vehement anti-warning people are ever going to change their mind, no matter how long or taxing the debate becomes (like you said, it's often very deep-rooted), but I've read some frankly laughably bad reasons as to why someone shouldn't put warnings on their fanfic, and while on one hand I've gaped speechlessly at them, on the other hand I realize they sound like me when I'm trying to explain something I myself don't really understand. Like why absolute truth doesn't exist, or something.

Re: My very long winded 2c.

[meril.livejournal.com]

I saw one post on this whole debate that said that the issue with safe space and warnings is that fandom is so sexualized that you're going to be running into this sort of dodgy eroticism all the time.

I've had discussions with worldserpent (usually prompted by stuff like Nazi porn discussions on MeFi) that a lot of the thing with fandom and the periodic dramas are that a lot of things people in general, not just in fandom, find to be turnons in their sexual fantasies are really, really problematic when looked at carefully.

[unearthly-calm.livejournal.com]

YES. Thank you.